Discussion:
mixing 2 stroke oil
(too old to reply)
Peter Z
2003-10-13 14:22:46 UTC
Permalink
Have an old 84 2 stoke that requires 20-1 fuel mix. Bike has a lot of oil
coming from muffler end. Can anyone explain if the recommend mixture set on
the bike applies to any oil we have today, or to the oil the manufacturer
was using back in 1984? Never really did understand the whole mixing and
ratio thing.


Peter
Kaybearjr
2003-10-13 15:27:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Z
Can anyone explain if the recommend mixture set on
the bike applies to any oil we have today, or to the oil the manufacturer was
using back in 1984?

2-stroke oil may or may not be "better" today than it was
in the last century...

Some of the smaller oil suppliers just buy oil from some major refinery in
55-gallon drums and don't actually do anything with the oil they sell except
repackage it in their own container and sell it for a high price.

Generally, oils have been formulated for increasingly harsh service. That's why
you see all the different SE, SF, SG, SH, SJ, etc. ratings on the cans of
*automotive* oils. You might want to read the ratings (if any) on containers of
oil found on the shelves of your local motorcycle emporium and do a web search
for whatever manufacturer's oil interests you.

Selecting a 2-stroke oil and pre-mixing it is sort of like buying insurance.
You don't need the extra protection of an oil-rich mixture until you need it,
and then you really will regret not having enough oil when you have to replace
seized pistons or scored cylinders because you enjoyed the extra power of an
oil-lean mixture for a few miles at high RPM.
Post by Peter Z
Never really did understand the whole mixing and ratio thing.
2-stroke oil pre-mixing depends on three things, the *size* of the engine, and
the type of oil, synthetic or petroleum based, and whether the engine is
air-cooled or
water-cooled.

A water-cooled engine will require less oil because it runs at a more stable
temperature. It won't burn oil like an air-cooled engine, so it will throw
excess oil into the exhaust port and upper exhaust pipe where it will turn to
goo, or even harden, blocking the pipe with carbon.

If you have a small bore 125 cc engine that runs at high RPM, you're better off
with a synthetic oil running about 40 to 1 ratio for two reasons. It has less
cylinder wall area that needs to be coated with oil and the small needle
bearings in the rods won't skid on the rod journal when you start the engine
up. Skidding needle bearings wear flat rapidly.

But, if I was riding a 250 cc or larger machine, I'd run petroleum oil at 20:1
or thereabouts, especially if it was air-cooled.

I found that my dirtbikes felt like they had more compression and were
"torquier" with petroleum oil at 20:1 mix. It was probably because the extra
oil sealed the piston rings better. When I experimented with synthetic oils,
the engine would idle at higher RPM and rev freely, but the type of riding that
I was doing didn't require high RPM work.

And, if you're experimenting with 2-stroke oils, be aware that some of the oils
will do strange things when mixed together. Like, one synthetic oil turned a
castor blend that I had been using into a hard varnish-like material when it
slopped over onto my gas tank and I actually had to chip it off...

And, like I said to another poster on this NG, castor oil pre-mix may smell
racy, but you need to tear down a castor-burning two stroke after every race
and clean the goo out of the rings or it won't run right...
Matthew Lundberg
2003-10-15 01:07:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaybearjr
And, like I said to another poster on this NG, castor oil pre-mix may smell
racy, but you need to tear down a castor-burning two stroke after every race
and clean the goo out of the rings or it won't run right...
I wasn't aware that people used castor oil in motorcycles. That's the
oil that's used for glow-plug model engines. That fuel also contains
nitromethane, adding to the racy smell, but at least the smaller of
these glow-plug engines lack any piston rings. And they're very easy
to dismantle and ungum.

I had a Suzuki GT-750 years ago, which used a separate oil tank and
a variable stroke pump, controlled by the throttle setting. That bike
would consistently misfire when run on Suzuki two-stroke oil, as was
specified by the users manual. Running nearly any automotive 10w-30
fixed the problem, at less than half the price for the oil. But the
automotive oils did create more exhaust smoke. I had one person insist
that my bike needed new rings, to fix the blue smoke. I just told him
that it was normal for that model, and went about my business.
richard cortese
2003-10-15 04:00:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Lundberg
I wasn't aware that people used castor oil in motorcycles. That's the
oil that's used for glow-plug model engines. That fuel also contains
nitromethane, adding to the racy smell, but at least the smaller of
these glow-plug engines lack any piston rings. And they're very easy
to dismantle and ungum.
FWIW: About 30 years back one of my friends rejetted his Hodaka ACE 90 to
run on that fuel. It seemed to give him the performance increase he was
looking for as back then I think it was something like $14/gallon and he was
willing to pay it. I believe the rest of the mix is methanol.
Kaybearjr
2003-10-15 19:44:11 UTC
Permalink
I had a Suzuki GT-750 years ago, which used a separate oil tank and a variable
stroke pump, controlled by the throttle setting. That bike would consistently
misfire when run on Suzuki two-stroke oil, as was
specified by the users manual. Running nearly any automotive 10w-30 fixed the
problem, at less than half the price for the oil.

The owner of the shop where I bought my first 1974 GT-750 told me that I
shouldn't use anything but "Super Red" or Chevron's version of the same thing.
It smelled like ammonia. It cost $1.00 a quart.

The oil pump rod was adjustable but I was worried about backing it off too far
and having the engine seize from lack of oil. I was getting around 600 miles to
a quart of Chevron, and it smoked and stank and clogged the muffler up with
soft runny black 2-stroke mung that would turn into carbon.

I bought a second 1974 GT-750 whose owner had used some synthetic (can't
remember the name anymore) he bought from a Target store. It would burn a
little cleaner, leaving a white ashy carbon.

My friend who bought a 1975 GT-750 adjusted the pump rod quite a bit, he was
getting 1000 miles per quart of Kendall GT-1.

Thinking about my experiences with the relatively cool-running water cooled
Suzukis, I think that I probably would have been better off just dumping a
quart of $0.39 RayLube into the oil injector tank
ES
2003-10-22 18:18:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kaybearjr
I found that my dirtbikes felt like they had more compression and were
"torquier" with petroleum oil at 20:1 mix. It was probably because the
extra oil sealed the piston rings better. When I experimented with
synthetic oils, the engine would idle at higher RPM and rev freely,
but the type of riding that I was doing didn't require high RPM work.
More likely what you were noticing is the difference in carburettor
jetting. If you are pre-mixing, 20:1 displaces more fuel in the air fuel
mixture than 40:1. If the carburettor is jetted for a 20:1 mixture,
changing to 40:1 represent increasing the jet size by about a half size
richer (2.5% richer mixture). If your jetting was pretty good with 20:1,
changing to 40:1 would make it less good, obviously. Stock jetting tends
toward richness anyway, to keep nitwits from burning up their motors.
Check your carburetion if you are changing mixture ratios.

Rein
2003-10-13 23:07:23 UTC
Permalink
you sur eit is 20:1 ? That is kind of high.
Post by Peter Z
Have an old 84 2 stoke that requires 20-1 fuel mix. Bike has a lot of oil
coming from muffler end. Can anyone explain if the recommend mixture set on
the bike applies to any oil we have today, or to the oil the manufacturer
was using back in 1984? Never really did understand the whole mixing and
ratio thing.
Peter
Remove NO-SPAM from email address when replying
Charlie
2003-10-14 00:46:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Z
Have an old 84 2 stoke that requires 20-1 fuel mix. Bike has a lot of oil
coming from muffler end. Can anyone explain if the recommend mixture set on
the bike applies to any oil we have today, or to the oil the manufacturer
was using back in 1984? Never really did understand the whole mixing and
ratio thing.
I'd try a synthetic at 30:1 for starters, and see how that goes.

Charlie
Greg
2003-10-14 20:17:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Z
Have an old 84 2 stoke that requires 20-1 fuel mix. Bike has a lot of oil
coming from muffler end. Can anyone explain if the recommend mixture set on
the bike applies to any oil we have today, or to the oil the manufacturer
was using back in 1984? Never really did understand the whole mixing and
ratio thing.
Peter
The gas/oil mixture ratio for a 2-stroke is determined by the oil far
more than by the particular bike. The manufactures say 20:1 because
that is safe using any old can of oil you have laying around. If you
use a 2-stroke oil that advertises itself as "50:1" oil then you will
almost certainly have no trouble with it mixed at 50:1.

If you will used a synthetic 2-stroke oil such as Royal Purple or many
other quality brands, you can can mix it at 50:1 with room to spare,
so to speak. It will also quit smoking (once you have burned out the
residual in the pipe) and it will quit clogging up the exhaust port
and muffler with carbon.

Again I will say it... the proper mixture ratio for a 2-stroke is far
more a function of the quality of the oil than of the design of the
motor.
Peter Z
2003-10-15 03:25:26 UTC
Permalink
Question answered. I thank everyone for there input.

Peter
Post by Greg
Post by Peter Z
Have an old 84 2 stoke that requires 20-1 fuel mix. Bike has a lot of oil
coming from muffler end. Can anyone explain if the recommend mixture set on
the bike applies to any oil we have today, or to the oil the
manufacturer
Post by Greg
Post by Peter Z
was using back in 1984? Never really did understand the whole mixing and
ratio thing.
Peter
The gas/oil mixture ratio for a 2-stroke is determined by the oil far
more than by the particular bike. The manufactures say 20:1 because
that is safe using any old can of oil you have laying around. If you
use a 2-stroke oil that advertises itself as "50:1" oil then you will
almost certainly have no trouble with it mixed at 50:1.
If you will used a synthetic 2-stroke oil such as Royal Purple or many
other quality brands, you can can mix it at 50:1 with room to spare,
so to speak. It will also quit smoking (once you have burned out the
residual in the pipe) and it will quit clogging up the exhaust port
and muffler with carbon.
Again I will say it... the proper mixture ratio for a 2-stroke is far
more a function of the quality of the oil than of the design of the
motor.
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